South Milwaukee Sectional


#1

How would you feel if the team results were originally posted like this:

And then the SM 7th runner was retrieved minutes later to re-render the team scoring as such:

http://entries.pttiming.com/system/results/files/19574/original/bvteamsouth_milwaukee.txt?1508603339

Really playing with the emotions of kids here. Shouldnt the coaches have a review tent or maybe if there is less than seven runners the timer should be notified before printing results?


#2

I agree! Something like this happened many years back for my program. We thought we did not qualify but they missed one of our runners. Luckily I the score cards to prove it. I always look over the results to make sure things are correct. Yesterday I was doing the same thing with the scores being so close.


#3

In the dark ages when I coached and electronic scoring was not as common as it is now, somehow our #4 runner was missed, and we did not qualify. However, after we alerted the meet referee and the host school, the error was fixed, but they literally had to go on to the bus and take the plaque and medals away from the team who thought they had qualified in our place. I am
glad in both cases that the results were ultimately corrected, but I do feel for these kids…


#4

This reminds me of the 2007 State meet when the girls D1 team race was so tight. They initially gave the title to Whitefish Bay and allowed them to celebrate before fixing a mistake and giving the title to Arrowhead by 3 points. I felt so bad for those girls. One of the more heartbreaking things I’ve seen in cross country.


#5

I was hoping this thread was going to be about 21:29 not, in fact, being good enough to qualify as an individual out of the girls South Milwaukee Sectional.


#6

I have been coaching in Missouri the past few years and in 2013 (before I started coaching) a similar thing happened at State. These were the originally posted state team results:

and these were the correct team results:

A chip from an individual runner did not read, but then an alternate for Lafayette was incorrectly manually entered instead of the missed runner. Obviously it was a great day for St. Louis U. High, which is the team I’m now helping coach, but I thought it was really irresponsible of the timers to make an error like that and not check it. Making kids think they’ve won a state championship and then taking it away is just brutal.

Although, on a brighter note, that Lafayette team was 7 non-seniors and they went on to be ranked as high as 6th in the country the following year. :slight_smile:


#7

there should be a rule that the coaches of the supposed qualifying teams are called to the score tent to verify all their scoring places before results are posted. If the score is particularly close for some other teams every place should be double and triple checked before posting. We had a similar thing happen at a sectional in Parkside where one of our girls was given an individual medal and told she qualified for state only to take her medal away later and tell her sorry you are not going. That was back when they changed the individual qualifying to the top five not on qualifying teams instead of the old rule of you had to be in the top 7 overall period.


#8

To be honest here if you would put these top 3 teams in several other sectionals none of them would make it out but to tell a team they qualified and then screw up the scoring and pull it away is unforgivable period.

Something that really #$%@ me off is how do some sectionals have only 9 teams competing That is just plain poor administration of the tournament. That means there is 25% less competition is those sectionals so not only do they put weaker teams in there they reduce the number of teams. Some sectionals only had 55 finishers instead of 84. Really bad.


#9

It’s no fault of the Sectional Hosts. The WIAA needs to wait on Sectional assignments and then poll the schools to see who will be complete or incomplete and start shift the schools around to better balance the sectionals. Just looking at the numbers this is one reason why I like my super Sectional idea. I shared on this site before and have shared with the coaches. Don’t get me started on how their geographical representation has some flaws.


#10

Pretty simple answer to your beef here. These sectionals are set up a year in advance. Some schools have low participation and may not field a full squad or a team at all. How can you blame the WIAA for that?? Is there anything you like or are satisfied with?


#11

@Titan90 you think there is nothing wrong with this situation? This is a balanced sectional and it is fair? This is not only a D1 issue but a D2-D3 issue as well. There were sectionals that only had 7 compete teams out of 16. We even had no shows for some teams. 68 runners out of a possible 112 if all complete? Come on!! There is a flaw in the system!


#12

Of the teams that did not show, were there any legit contenders? Any individuals that may have qualified? I am not saying I agree with the no show but in reality the teams and individuals that made it most likely would have with all 16 or whatever teams were there or not. So if 112 runners compete you would feel better? Qualifying is more legit then? Look at some results. Teams with their top guy running well over 18 minutes. Does it really matter to the top ten finishers that they are there or not? I honestly believe anyone with a remote chance of qualifying ran in their sectional race. No one was cheated or screwed by having fewer finishers. Again, I am not saying I agree with the no shows. Just be realistic.


#13

You blame them because they shouldn’t be assigning teams until about 2 weeks before the state meet and don’t count an incomplete team as a competing team. Just to obvious I guess. The WIAA setting the teams in March instead of the end of the first week in October is the big problem. As I said in another thread there doesn’t seem to be a problem letting seven football division qualifiers know their site and opponent several days before the playoff but ours has to be done seven months before. The whole thing is just taking the easy way out.


#14

For many reasons, I strongly disagree with the idea waiting until the first week in October to assign Sectionals. The only reason I’ll touch on now, is that as a coach, I want to know as far in advance as possible what type of course my athletes will be racing so we can be prepared as possible. In the past, our team was rotated between Sectionals so frequently it felt like being on a tilt-a-whirl. Four different courses in five years, ranging from very hilly (think Hayward and Amery) to pancake flat. In years when we only had a long shot of making it to state, we at least knew how to train to be best prepared. And guess what? Sometimes it paid off with a trip to Rapids.

With regards to Sectionals that have a high number of incomplete teams, it really doesn’t bother me. I’ve coached teams in those type of Sectionals, and in actuality, it makes it more difficult to do well as it seems to turn the race into more of a dual meet. And just because there are less teams, it doesn’t mean the quality of those teams is bad. Even in recent years, teams who have placed second at State, have come out of those Sectionals.

That being said, I can understand how it could be frustrating to “good” teams from another Sectional to see what appears to be weaker Sectional (one in which they may have qualified). I’ve been in that boat too. Never will I forget the year our team missed out on qualifying for State by only 2 points, when a neighboring team who we dominated all year, advanced in a different Sectional. But you know what? My girls never forgot that feeling either and worked their butts off year round and qualified the following year in the tougher Sectional. The experience didn’t make them bitter; it made them better.


#15

I like your answer and you get it. Sometimes disappointment leads to great things. More coaches should be like you!


#16

Two points I want to make on this thread:

1.) There have been a few posts on how poorly the WIAA has set up the sectionals, and how lazy they are. I am not going to refute that, I am going to prove that. I am reminded of a talk I had with my AD in college (who was a friendly and accessible guy). I was attempting to convince him that our CC team winning a trophy at nationals (D3 of course), was a bigger deal than our basketball team making the field of 64 for the basketball tournament (D3 of course). He responded, “Let me stop you right there. Nobody cares about cross country. Period.” We all live in the CC bubble. We are coaches, athletes, former athletes, or people who have friends or family in that world, so we care a lot about what happens. The WIAA does not. They put more thought and care into football and basketball, because those are the money sports. Those are the ones a majority of the population is actually interested in. When football or basketball teams make it to state, schools give their kids the day off. When teams make it to CC state, many students probably do not even know. The state finals for football and basketball are shown live on TV. Cross country gets a half hour recap show a few weeks after it happens. The WIAA doesn’t care about cross country. Coaches complaining are like a mosquito buzzing around them to be swatted away. I think it was @westharrier who said that the coaches need to take control of the meet somehow. That is probably the only way anything will change.

2.) I was thinking about the post from earlier this morning about how unfair it is for “second tier” teams like Grafton or NB West, to be put into the same sectional all the time as Port, Shorewood, and Wisco. I was reminded or when i was coaching and a member of the WCCCA. I went to the organizational meeting Friday afternoon of the clinic a few times. What struck me, and is the main reason I can’t get behind all of this complaining about the sectionals, is because you never hear any coaches from the second tier teams complaining about how unfair the sectionals are. The Grafton coach would never say, “Well it sucks that we’re in a sectional with Shorewood and Wisco.” What you do get, is the Wisco coach saying, “Some year we might not make it to state, and that would be unfair.” In my opinion, most of the complaining about sectionals is done by coaches of big schools, who are trying to “retain control of their fiefdoms.” These schools will make it to state 19 out of 20 years, but the year they don’t, it’s because “the sectionals are unfair.” I really just can’t give much credence to their arguments.


#17

Absolutely correct that nobody on that sectional was cheated. It’s the teams in the other sectionals that might have had a chance if the complete teams were distributed correctly and even remotely even. Incomplete teams should not count as one of our 12 or 16 schools. They are just there to perhaps qualify an invididual or get experience.


#18

You don’t get it. I am saying that the teams in the full sectionals are being cheated out of a chance to qualify as they have perhaps 11 or 15 other school to compete with where there were D1 sectionals with only 9 complete teams and D2 and D3 with far less than 16. Spread the complete teams around not and just fill in the incomplete after the field of complete teams is established. Iowa seeds their state meet 9 days before the event and we need 7 months?? Pick the locations 7 months ahead and fill in the teams after week 8. Everyone who is on the outside is willing to work harder to get to the final show but let’s make it more possible for those upsets to occur instead of pouring 4 and sometimes even 5 ranked teams in a sectional with no plan. Or for that matter putting the number 1 and 2 ranked teams in the same sectional when there might be another sectional not much farther way that would separate those teams. I applaud your ideas of battling back after a close defeat one year but if you are in with #1 and #2 your defeat would not be 2 points it might be 60 points. Or if you were in with 3 other teams ranked above you things might not be so rosy for your outlook. Just saying.


#19

From what you show here 21:29 was the 5th non-team runner so they should have qualified. Pretty slow time to qualify I would say but it is 5th as you show here. There were girls running a minute faster on comparable courses that didn’t make it to state. Another inequity in our tournament however I think the present system is to lenient anyway. The old system of just the top 7 period was better. The individual extra qualifiers should be just for runners who have a shot at the podium or making all state as individuals. The present system automatically loads the race with 50 extra individuals most of who had no chance to podium or make all state. I would rather see 4 deserving wildcard teams make it than a bunch of 17 minute plus individuals. Just saying that is my feeling and maybe nobody else’s but I think you could keep the field still at around 190 for D1 and 152 for D2 and D3 but reducing the individuals to just the top 7 overall in each sectional period whether they are on a team or not.


#20

We had that happen in 77 twice in a week in track. First in regionals we got the error corrected and had to go to the team bus of the team we actually beat and get the trophy back from them. At sectionals the same thing happened with the same team but they had already gone back to their school with the trophy. The WIAA wanted us to drive to the school and get the trophy back but I said no way. The school hosting sectionals and making the mistake should do that and they did. I think the other team a neighboring town hated us forever after that. In one case our pole vault points for our two guys were given to another team. Results should not be posted for sectionals in any sport until they have been checked and verified by the competing coaches!! Chips can be missed by the mats or antennas. Antennas can read nearby chips inadvertently and other computer type errors. Kids feelings need not be crushed do to these things.