NJSIAA Winter Meeting


#1

Full Minutes will be sent out and posted, but a couple of things of note

  • Indoor Sectionals will be held over 2 weekends next year. No school night
  • Protected seeds for 800, 1600, 3200 will increase to 12
  • A proposal will be made to go to 8 deep for medals
  • 400m and 4x4 will all be run in alleys at Sectionals
  • Both PVs will start at 10am at MOC

#2

I hope you coaches know what you’re doing to your athletes here. I think ‘Alley start’ for the 400 is a bad idea and for the 4x400 it’s just plain dangerous. I think the ‘alley start’ is the one where 3-4 girls are supposed to run in 2 lanes (3-alleys=lanes 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6?). This is what we had indoors at sectionals a few years ago and then switched back to lanes and in my opinion it was a good switch.

You are sacrificing safety for expedience.

What you get is kids running all out (it’s called a 400 DASH for a reason) and elbowing for position or just backing off at both of the first two turns. Those turns are tight enough without adding another body for every two lanes. You are asking for injuries and complaints from parents and kids, as well as having the times affected.

For the 4x400 I can’t believe anyone would want more than 6 handoffs every two laps. That’s just crazy.

If the time of the meet is an issue, maybe you need to start imposing cutoff times to qualify for the sectionals. It could be based on the group so if you don’t run a 59 for guys or a 64 for girls in group 4, you don’t get to run an indoor 400 at sectionals. Same deal for the 4x400, maybe set it at 4:15 for guys and 4:30 for girls. (I have no idea where these would cut or whether they make sense or not, I’m just throwing out numbers that would include most but not all runners in the interest of keeping the meet running without having kids getting black eyes or turned ankles in the process.)

Introduce alley starts in a sprint and you’re asking for trouble gentlemen.


#3

I hope you coaches know what you’re doing to your athletes here. I think 'Alley start for the 400 is a bad idea and for the 4x400 it’s just plain dangerous. I think the ‘alley start’ is the one where 3-4 girls are supposed to run in 2 lanes (3-alleys=lanes 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6?). This is what we had indoors at sectionals a few years ago and then switched back to lanes and in my opinion it was a good switch. You can’t sacrifice safety for expedience.

What you get is kids running all out (it’s called a 400 DASH for a reason) and elbowing for position or just backing off at both of the first two turns. Those turns are tight enough without adding another body for every two lanes. You are asking for injuries and complaints from parents and kids, as well as having the times affected.

For the 4x400 I can’t believe anyone would want more than 6 handoffs every two laps. That’s just crazy.

If the time of the meet is an issue, maybe you need to start imposing cutoff times to qualify for the sectionals. It could be based on the group so if you don’t run a 59 for guys or a 64 for girls in group 4, you don’t get to run an indoor 400 at sectionals. Same deal for the 4x400, maybe set it at 4:15 for guys and 4:30 for girls. (I have no idea where these would cut or whether they make sense or not, I’m just throwing out numbers that would include most but not all runners in the interest of keeping the meet running without having kids getting black eyes or turned ankles in the process.)

Introduce alley starts in a sprint and you’re asking for trouble gentlemen.


#4

I work numerous meets where there are alley starts for the 4x4 and there are few issues. Rarely do we have a runner go down or a start need to be called back. Is a lane start preferable? Yes. Is an alley start dangerous? No more than the handoffs from 2 - 3 and 2 - 4. Alley starts are not dangerous.


#5

I am sure you’re right that few runners go down and that there are few starts called back. Is it the same number as it would be if they all started in lanes? I doubt it. That also doesn’t mean there aren’t issues, only that the issues (elbowing for position, bumping and having to let someone else run in your ‘lane’) are expected because of this type of start. If you think that it doesn’t affect times and it doesn’t affect the athletes trying to run this race I think you’re mistaken.

Handoffs in the indoor 4x400 in the more competitive heats (especially for the boys) are a mess and adding more kids than there are lanes is a recipe for injuries or at least bad blood. The kids deserve to run in lanes and not have to deal with this.

Why risk it? To make the meet run faster?

Joe, I’ll bet you $1 that this will cause:

> injuries
> complaints
> issues with times being slower than they were for the same athletes in prior meets
> or all of the above.

I hope you’re right and that there are no injuries. This is a bad decision though.


#6

I don’t know the reason for the decision but I do know that it is not dangerous. I would guess that this is about getting the meet done with more quickly and if you noticed next year the meets will be only on the weekends so there must have been complaints about length during the week. Well if you’re going to pack all those meets into one weekend in one facility you’d better find a way to make them shorter or you’re not going to get them all in.

You can’t be serious when you use slower times in the sectionals as a reason not to do it. ALL the times in sectionals are slower because of the nature of the event. Complaints? ANYTHING will cause complaints. ANYTHING.

Sorry not still buying that this is dangerous.


#7

Your opinion. Mine differs. I’ve spoken to kids who can’t stand starting in alleys or in that two-tiered ‘mob start’ because they’ve turned ankles, gotten elbowed and gotten the wind knocked out of them before they took two steps. No restart, just go for it kid.

I would guess that this is about getting the meet done with more quickly and if you noticed next year the meets will be only on the weekends so there must have been complaints about length during the week.

My guess is that’s the reason as well, I just don’t think this is the right change to make in order to address that issue.

Well if you’re going to pack all those meets into one weekend in one facility you’d better find a way to make them shorter or you’re not going to get them all in.

I think they have ‘opening heights’ for jumps and ‘minimum distances’ for jumps and throws that they will not measure below, right? Why not have ‘maximum times’ for the 400m and 4x400?

You can’t be serious when you use slower times in the sectionals as a reason not to do it. ALL the times in sectionals are slower because of the nature of the event.
Why is it that times or marks should be any less during a sectional meet than they are at another meet in the same venue? This point doesn’t make sense to me. Why set the kids up for a sub-par performance in the name of ‘getting it over with faster’? Just one more case where there are other factors taking precedence over the kids’ enjoyment of the meet or chances for a good performance and in this case, yes I think their safety as well. Ask the top 10 400 meter runners in any section how they feel about running in ‘alleys’ indoors and see if you find any fans. Then ask them why. That should figure into the decision here. I think most if not all would tell you they’d rather run in lanes.

Complaints? ANYTHING will cause complaints. ANYTHING.

Sorry not still buying that this is dangerous.
So I guess we don’t have a bet. :smiley:

Me and you arguing this point now isn’t going to change anything. The coaches have voted and apparently this is what they want. I wish them good luck and sincerely hope no one gets hurt as a result.

I predict that there will be another change after this year to go back to lanes though, just like we have had before. The knee-jerk reaction to put more kids in a heat is not the only answer to long meets and someday someone will figure out a better, safer way.


#8

8 deep for medals at MOCs only I assume?


#9

Not sure I agree with the 12 protected seeds for the 800, 1600 and 3200. Kids who are unable to get a seed time end up screwed.


#10

You assume correctly - only in the MOC.
As far as the use of alleys, we are going BACK to using alleys in the sectionals, a practice we used since sectionals started. Tried lanes this year and found the meets went too long. Max will be 9 in a section with the highest two sections having no more than 7.


#11

Minutes


#12

This wasn’t a matter on which the coaches voted. I believe it was decided by the winter track & field committee. Don Danser would be able to clarify.

Without agreeing or disagreeing, I understand the rationale for the change as explained in the minutes of the committee meeting.


#13

does holding the sectional meets on seperate weekends have an impact on schools for their respective county or conference championships?


#14

You’re right about it being opinion. I see and work about 60 meets a year, many with alley starts and haven’t noticed an unusual number of problems. And races do get called back with alley starts.

Sectionals marks are bad because too many kids are doing too many events for the cause of winning a sectional title.

Alley starts will allegedly save one hour per sectional meet. That’s a lot when you have to cram all those meets into two weekends. (I am surprised that there hasn’t been complaints about the fact that one set of competitors will have the advantage of a week off before groups).

Sectionals on two weekends in February. When weather causes a postponement it is really going to be a problem to reschedule.


#15

That is kind of what I was getting at with my above post…although it seems group 1 and 2 are exclusive to one weekend and group 3 and 4 to the other so within the confines of their own group it won’t make a difference but I would be interested to see how it would impact wildcards if group 2 or even 1 gain an edge in that area

and as I asked in my previous post, does this scheduling come without any conflicts regarding county and conference championships?


#16

They don’t have wild cards from sectionals so it should not matter.


#17

I know that I apologize…I was referring to how the extra week of rest would impact how well Group 1 and Group 2 will do at the group meet while 3 and 4 have a quicker turnaround


#18

They will likely alternate years. So that any two groups don’t have an “advantage” year after year.

JW


#19

This actually helps us in Hudson County. We traditionlly run on Wednesday of the week of Sectionals. This year 2 teams had to choose county or state meet. Last year my team ran Wedneday / Thursday. Not so bad for jumps, sprints but the distance crew suffer.


#20

Two things on the field events that I really like…

  1. Staggering the Groups in the field. This year I tried to get between shot and high jump at the same time and it was pretty tough. Add in the track and getting into the school for shot and it was impossible. That’s an excellent change.
  2. The “A” athlete “B” athletes competing against each other at the relays. Hope that means an end to the ridiculous a NH eliminated both athletes rule.